NEED HELP 2002 Chevy Trailblazer no crank

BlueDazing

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Not sure if this is the right area to post this but here goes.

I have an 02 Chevy Trailblazer that was working fine up until we got a new truck and left it to sit for a while. We had moved it a couple times as it sat (it sat for a good 3 years), I decided that I want to start using it again since there wasn't anything wrong with it, other than overly sensitive power steering and gas guzzling. When I went to turn the key, nothing would happen. No click noises, no start attempts, the lights in the dash were responding to the key being turned, but that was all. I have already diagnosed the starter relay, and ignition switch and they are fine. If I start the truck through the button on the relay when you pop the cap off, the truck starts and runs fine for about a second before shutting off (likely due to the anti-theft), I have already hooked up a cheap scanner, which comes back with 0 codes. I have tested all of the fuses in the fuse box which are all working. Fuse #17 gets powered on both prongs when turning the key to start. The ground socket for the relay does not respond at all to my test light when turning the key to start. I assume the owner of this truck has this issue before, as there is a red and a black wire hooked up to a cheap metal ON/OFF switch coming directly out of the starter solenoid. All it does is exactly what the relay does when you activate that, it starts the truck for about 1 second before shutting off. I doubt the issue is the neutral safety switch as if it was, the truck would not be starting when activating the relay manually, and it can't be the battery or anything that involves starting the truck, as the truck does start. My assumptions are either the PCM, BCM, or anti-theft, that are causing the problem. I don't want to have to get any new parts but at the end of the day, if I have to I will. I would really like to fix the parts that are already in place, as there was nothing wrong with them before letting the truck sit. The security light is not on, or blinking, but I suppose it could still be that.
 

Mooseman

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BlueDazing

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Hi and welcome.

We have this thread that goes through checking for a no crank situation:

No Crank, Like Attempting To Start In Drive
I've gone through the thread and to your bit about the terminals, I am getting 12v+ at terminal 30 and 85 at all times, and I am not getting any power to terminal 86 and 87. Terminal 87 is getting ground at all times/with the key turned to on. When I turn the key to crank, all of the terminal readings stay the same with 30 and 85 staying powered, 86 staying dead and 87 staying grounded.
 

BlueDazing

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in the video, I am getting power on both top pins, 86 and 30, at all times, but no ground on pin 85.
86 30
85 87/a
With no ground on pin 85, I believe the circuit is not made, and the switch is not, well, switching.

I'm not sure if his pin numbers match mine but the 2 top pins are always powered, 2 bottom are not, the bottom rightmost pin reads ground, the left, which as shown in the video should have ground, does not.
 

budwich

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the ground to operate the relay is coming from the PCM. It is only sent when turned to start. The start signal has to be seen at the pcm as a 12v signal which should be check as this would indicate a likely ignition switch problem.
 
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mrrsm

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If you look at the Image of the 2002 Trailblazer 4.2L ACDelco Starter Relay...you can see from the Circuit Diagram embossed on the side that IT is a DBOM (Dead Balls On Match) for the one described in the Video:

ACDELCOSTARTERELAY62.jpg

Check the Part Number for the Starter Relay that is presently Installed against the one depicted in the car Parts Advertisement for any discrepancies... Then ... Test your Original Relay as follows... and listen to the suggestions for testing the Auto Wiring Circuit and Follow The Wiring Diagrams in your GM OEM Digital Manual:

Tools:

Digital Multi-Meter and some Short Wires fitted with Alligator Clips


And in THIS Video... Eric "O" from SMA (South Main Auto) shows HOW to R&R the Ignition Switch if that turns out to be BAD and THE source of this problem as mentioned above by @budwich:

 
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BlueDazing

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If you look at the Image of the 2002 Trailblazer 4.2L ACDelco Starter Relay...you can see from the Circuit Diagram embossed on the side that IT is a DBOM (Dead Balls On Match) for the one described in the Video:

View attachment 107399

Check the Part Number for the Starter Relay that is presently Installed against the one depicted in the car Parts Advertisement for any discrepancies... Then ... Test your Original Relay as follows... and listen to the suggestions for testing the Auto Wiring Circuit and Follow The Wiring Diagrams in your GM OEM Digital Manual:

Tools:

Digital Multi-Meter and some Short Wires fitted with Alligator Clips


And in THIS Video... Eric "O" from SMA (South Main Auto) shows HOW to R&R the Ignition Switch if that turns out to be BAD and THE source of this problem as mentioned above by @budwich:

I've watched both of the videos and for the first one, the relay itself works. I took the relay out of my trailblazer and put it in a 2003 suburban and it started, i also tried the 2003 suburban relay in the trailblazer and it did not start. I am not sure what you mean by "R&R" the ignition switch, but as for checking the ignition 1 signal, can i do that without a scanner?
 

mrrsm

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Yes ...if you can observe the Starting Voltage on Ignition 1 using your Scanner and it shows approximately B+ (Battery Positive) Voltage of near 12 Volts or Higher when Turning the Ignition Key... then the Starting Circuit SHOULD be Okay... If LOWER in Voltage... then you either have a "Suspect Ignition Switch... or a Problem Wire in between the Fuse Box and the Ignition Switch Wiring Harness.

The acronym "R&R" implies: Removal and Replacement
 
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BlueDazing

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Yes ...if you can observe the Starting Voltage on Ignition 1 using your Scanner and it shows approximately B+ (Battery Positive) Voltage of near 12 Volts or Higher... the Starting Circuit SHOULD be Okay... If LOWER in Voltage...then you have a "Suspect Ignition Switch.

The acronym "R&R" implies: Removal and Replacement
I don't have a scanner like that, I do have a multi-meter, can i test it using a multi-meter?
 

mrrsm

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Yes... and in fact even though this Instructional Video is for a different GM Vehicle, if you watch how THIS Video evolves as an 'Ignition 1 Circuit Testing Analog' and observe the logic laid out by the VOP (Video Original Poster)... he gives an EXCELLENT explanation of how to do this test with a Lighted Pin Probe and with a DMM to observe the Ignition 1 Circuit during Activation.

Caveat Emptor:

BE VERY CAREFUL NOT TO OVER-SPREAD THE FEMALE FUSE SLOTS WITH THE PIN-PROBING...

You will probably need an Extra Hand to sit in the Driver's Seat and Turn The Ignition Key for you as you hover around under the hood and observe the DMM and the Probe Light at the same time:


In THIS Video... Eric "O" from SMA (South Main Auto) performs a SIMILAR Diagnostic on the Ignition Circuit of a 2005 Chevrolet Trailblazer, but STRICTLY Following the GM Ignition Switch Diagram at the Ignition Switch Harness (Under The Steering Column) while using a Lighted Pin Probe AND his GM OEM Tech 2:

 
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BlueDazing

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Yes... and in fact even though this Instructional Video is for a different GM Vehicle, if you watch how THIS Video evolves as an 'Ignition 1 Circuit Testing Analog' and observe the logic laid out by the VOP (Video Original Poster)... he gives an EXCELLENT explanation of how to do this test with a Lighted Pin Probe and with a DMM to observe the Ignition 1 Circuit during Activation.

Caveat Emptor:

BE VERY CAREFUL NOT TO OVER-SPREAD THE FEMALE FUSE SLOTS WITH THE PIN-PROBING...

You will probably need an Extra Hand to sit in the Driver's Seat and Turn The Ignition Key for you as you hover around under the hood and observe the DMM and the Probe Light at the same time:


In THIS Video... Eric "O" from SMA (South Main Auto) performs a SIMILAR Diagnostic on the Ignition Circuit of a 2005 Chevrolet Trailblazer, but STRICTLY at the Ignition Switch Harness while using a Lighted Pin Probe AND his GM OEM Tech 2:

I used the multi-meter and test light, I am getting 12.40 volts at the pink and yellow wire coming directly out of the ignition switch, and I am getting 12v in fuse #17 as well when turning the key to crank.
 

mrrsm

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Have you looked over the Under Hood Wiring for any signs of Rodent Infestation? Try Tightening the Unique Galvanized Fasteners holding the Upper Fuse Block Body (Housing the Copper Tracing Points) to the Fuse Block Plug-In Harnesses underneath and THEN Try to Start the Engine.

If the Wiring between the Ignition Switch Harness and the Fuse Block is nominal AND If the Ignition Switch Innards are Nominal... Then... it might be that during the Jump Start... the PCM was Damaged. Here are the Connector and PCM Pin-Out Diagrams to follow up with Wire Integrity Probes. You could also loosen and then re-tighten the PCM Connectors as well.

upload_2017-4-25_20-34-21.pngupload_2017-4-25_20-34-43.pngupload_2017-4-25_20-37-25.png2004trailblazerpcm4-jpg.73337.jpegupload_2017-4-25_20-33-51.png
 
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BlueDazing

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No rats nests, no chewed wires, everything looks in order. I couldn't tighten the fasteners any more than they already were.
 
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mrrsm

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*Bump* the Last Post (Edited for MORE PCM Pin-Out Images) On Rare Occasions... There have been instances involving Fractured Solid Copper Wire Bends in the Fuse Block caused by the Wire Work Hardening from Excess Vibrations Due to Bad Motor Mounts.

We are getting *Pretty Thin* and very close to the end of what is possibly wrong going on here. Do you have an Extra PCM to drop in if needed? Trailblazer - Envoy PCMs and Complete Under-Hood Fuse Blocks can be found on eBay:

Fuse Blocks:


PCMs:


I would NOT Rule Out Changing the Ignition Switch before taking ANY other Steps here.
 
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BlueDazing

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Have you looked over the Under Hood Wiring for any signs of Rodent Infestation? Try Tightening the Unique Galvanized Fasteners holding the Upper Fuse Block Body (Housing the Copper Tracing Points) to the Fuse Block Plug-In Harnesses underneath and THEN Try to Start the Engine.

If the Wiring between the Ignition Switch Harness and the Fuse Block is nominal AND If the Ignition Switch Innards are Nominal... Then... it might be that during the Jump Start... the PCM was Damaged. Here are the Connector and PCM Pin-Out Diagrams to follow up with Wire Integrity Probes. You could also loosen and then re-tighten the PCM Connectors as well.

View attachment 107416View attachment 107417View attachment 107418View attachment 107419View attachment 107420
You mention:
it might be that during the Jump Start... the PCM was Damaged
What Jump Start are you referring to? If you mean the several that I have done through the relay, I did them because the truck already wasn't starting.

I don't doubt that something is wrong with the PCM, I will replace it if need be, I just wanted to try everything else before doing so.
 

mrrsm

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Sorry for the "Mixed Thread Metaphors" but I've responded to a few other No Crank - No Start Threads recently and conflated one of those into yours... You can disregard that particular comment.

But in reviewing your Original Post #1... With the Truck sitting for such an extended period of time of over Three Years, especially in areas experiencing excessive rains and floods, a lot more negative events come to mind:

(1) Consider that if the Battery is NOT Stress Tested beyond using a DMM to Measure the Resting Voltage that the PCM-BCM in this Vehicle is VERY sensitive to even slightly sub-optimal Battery B+ Voltage. Likewise...Corroded Engine Block to Body Grounds come into play here.

(2) If the Fuel Pump Primes just after Turning the Ignition Key and then dies in the same sequence after side-stepping the Ignition Fuse Circuit, there is the possible issue of the Key Tumbler Ignition Lock-Work not releasing the Anti-Theft Lock.

(3) Sometimes a Loose Upper Multi Wire Connection leading to the top of the Ignition Switch Housing Interface is the cause, temporarily solved by clipping off a bit of a Skinny Black Zip Tie and stuffing it down inside to force a better contact between the Connector and the top of the Metal Body.

That solution might work in an Emergency -Stranding circumstance... but a better Tear Down and Replace-Repair of The Ignition Switch Housing from the Steering Column would be in order right along with getting a **** Brand New Key-Lock Tumbler Set as well

IGNITIONSWITCHHOUSING.jpg


**** If the "Lil' Woman" had a Handful of Keys along with 3 Lb "Monkee's Paw" Charm dangling off of the Key Ring...over time... and after innumerable Pendulum Swings from it moving about from all of the Starts & Stops and Left & Right Turns...the Tumbler Parts inside of the Lockwork can become FUBARed.
 
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BlueDazing

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For #1, I have already used 3 different batteries while trying to fix this truck, one being a fresh lithium ion battery, so I know it's not the battery, the test light i used was hooked up to the body for ground, and the ground was working fine on there.

For #2, The fuel pump does prime when I turn the key to the run position, I'm not sure how to tell if it dies afterwards but I do hear it turn on, I have already had suspicions of the Anti-Theft being the culprit. How exactly would I test if the Key Tumbler Ignition Lock-Work is not releasing the Anti-Theft Lock?

For #3 I can check for/try what you are suggesting, but I'm not sure where the "Multi Wire Connection leading to the top of the Lock-Work Security Interface" is.
 

mrrsm

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I think Eric "O" 's Work on the GM "BYPASS THE PASSLOCK" issue on this Steering Column goes into great visual detail on the components and harnesses installed. Best if Downloaded and SLO-MO played to be able to do Screen Prints of the High Detail Content here:

The "Multi-Wire" comment is because I could not remember whether there are Three or Four Wires ending in the Tiny Plug at the Top of the Ignition Housing PASSLOCK Sensor that Eric "O" will explain below as he works underneath the Steering Column to Bi-Sect Two Wires and introduce a Variable Resistor Pack he adjusts in order to side-step the problem caused by the PASSLOCK System:

PASSLOCKCONNECTOR.jpg

 
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BlueDazing

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I think Eric "O" 's Work on the GM "BYPASS THE PASSLOCK" issue on this Steering Column goes into great visual detail on the components and harnesses installed. Best if Downloaded and SLO-MO played to be able to do Screen Prints of the High Detail Content here:

The "Multi-Wire" comment is because I could not remember whether there are Three or Four Wires ending in the Tiny Plug at the Top of the Ignition Housing PASSLOCK Sensor that Eric "O" will explain below:

I've watched the video, and I'm still not exactly sure what I'm supposed to do. I actually snipped that yellow wire at one point to see if the truck would stay running when starting from the relay, it was an attempt to disable the Anti-Theft from shutting off the truck after a second when starting from the relay, but it did not work and I put the wire back together. After I put it back together I actually had to do the security relearn to get the light to stop blinking, but I'm confused. If you are trying to get the resistor to match the voltage that is already present during crank, how does that solve anything?

I'd also like to know if there is a way to disable the Anti-Theft from shutting off the vehicle when using an unauthorized start (i.e manually starting from the relay.)

As the old owner of this truck has a metal switch coming directly out of the starter solenoid and it starts the truck, and I am willing to just route it into the trucks interior, and then use that to start the truck. I am not looking to bypass the Anti-Theft, but disable it entirely so that the truck will stay running when using that metal switch.
 

mrrsm

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In the same way that instructing anyone HERE as to "How To Disable a Seat Belt or an Air Bag" might invoke Vicarious Liability... were anyone at GMT Nation to provide similar Instructions on "How to Deliberately Sidestep any Anti-Theft System", the same Liability Exposure might occur. Of course, you can fully appreciate how such a request for similar actions would cast the subject matter in a whole new light.

You can get a better view of the removal of the entire (PASSLOCK Security Harness) at around 9:48 into this video. This implies that the only proper way to Repair a Failed Key-Lock Security apparatus involves performing everything portrayed during this R&R Video:

 

Mooseman

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Time out here. Before we get too deep into the weeds, lets get back to the ignition switch. Recheck again for proper outputs. Rewatch SMA's video, which I have queued to the proper time, as you do not need the scan tool.


You have to verify that you get 12V+ output to the yellow AND the pink wires when you turn the key to START. Even if you're getting the crank signal to the yellow, if the pink wire is dead, the PCM will not send that signal to the relay since the PCM itself is not getting power. Both must have power while turning the key to start.

If it was anything with the security, you'd have the security light on.
 

BlueDazing

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In the same way that instructing anyone HERE as to "How To Disable a Seat Belt or an Air Bag" might invoke Vicarious Liability... were anyone at GMT Nation to provide similar Instructions on "How to Deliberately Sidestep any Anti-Theft System", the same Liability Exposure might occur. Of course, you can fully appreciate how such a request for similar actions would cast the subject matter in a whole new light.

You can get a better view of the removal of the entire (PASSLOCK Security Harness) at around 9:48 into this video. This implies that the only proper way to Repair a Failed Key-Lock Security apparatus involves performing everything portrayed during this R&R Video:

I'm confused. So I understand that a seat belt or an air bag can invoke liability, as they are utilities that protect the driver. But as far as I know the Anti-Theft only protects the truck, not the driver. (Correct me if I'm wrong.)

But even then, I understand if that's not going to be an option. What exactly does the Passlock Security Harness do?

Is there a way for me to get the truck to stay running when using the metal switch I have coming out of the solenoid, without disabling the Anti-Theft?

I can't really do any of these advanced repairs as I am not in the position to buy any parts. My dad is the money holder in this situation and he does not like the truck to begin with, so I know he won't dish out any money towards it. I'd really like to get it going without buying any parts, but if that's not possible in my situation, then I will just ditch the truck.

Is there anything that I can try that won't need new parts?
 

mrrsm

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The "Liability" involved here concerns the unintentional teaching of others how to side-step the GM Anti-Theft Equipment... and thus... follow in a similar fashion to what happened back in the Mid-1980s ...with the regrettable design of the infamous "GM Saginaw Steering Column".

ONE SINGLE JUVENILE CAR THIEF... managed to cause a wave of Auto Thefts across North America that enabled local youths to steal practically ANY GM Vehicle using a Broken Spark Plug and a 6" Screw Driver. He even went so far as to Draw Diagrams and produce hand written, Step By Step Instructions in How To Steal GM (and Later, Dodge Vehicles after Chrysler purchased the GM Saginaw Steering Column Design) ) thereby creating an epidemic of crime after handing them out at a Juvenile Holding Facility!

Welcome... To The Auto Theft University!


This is NOT a Theoretical Problem. I worked 3,500 Auto Theft Cases per year with others in the Auto Theft Unit back then and found it insane that a whole generation of otherwise Average American Kids were committing serious Grand Theft Auto on an epic scale... sometimes resulting in Fatal Accidents during Police Chases, Armed Robberies and even Murders.

Many of these thefts started in adjacent neighborhoods near to where the young thieves lived as they stole nearby cars, one after another, just to "Get to The Malls" and then they stole cars at "The Malls" ...in order to drive home. THIS was a serious problem that started with ONE CAR THIEF.

I'm sure you can see how providing a path for anyone who reads this information after keying in on the word "UNAUTHORIZED" might pique the interest of the Criminal Element. So mentioning the idea of "Vicarious Liability" in THIS Thread makes perfect sense...and avoid a repeat of the "GM Saginaw Steering Column Debacle".
 
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Mooseman

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one of the initial checks is for dash lights... when you turn your key to on (not start), what lights come up on your instrument panel?
And then go out?
 

Mooseman

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Then that should eliminate anything with VATS. I would concentrate on the crank signal not getting to the PCM or a power/ground issue. There's also the neutral safety switch that might be preventing it.
 

BlueDazing

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Then that should eliminate anything with VATS. I would concentrate on the crank signal not getting to the PCM or a power/ground issue. There's also the neutral safety switch that might be preventing it.
The neutral safety switch was the original concern with the truck, but i assumed that if it is able to start from when jumping the relay, i figured it was fine.

It just continuously cranks if the truck is not in park, i haven't tried neutral yet but i assume it's the same. Does that not rule out the neutral safety switch though?
 

budwich

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Pretty much all of them.

I mean the security light comes on for a second and then turns off, it doesn't stay on.
that's not really useful. Post a picture of your instrument panel with key on.

all the lights should come on at first as that is the "all bulbs test"... so they should all be on.... that's one important test to ensure that you know your instrument panel can visually light indicators. The next important part is leaving the key on, which indicators stay lit... again post a picture.
 
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mrrsm

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Stupid Question here...

But while Cranking the Engine... have you been applying Foot Pressure to the Brake Pedal?
 

BlueDazing

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Stupid Question here...

But while Cranking the Engine... have you been applying Foot Pressure to the Brake Pedal?
If you mean while inside the truck and turning the key, yes, I have tried using the brake and not using it.

If you mean when starting it manually through the relay, then no.
 
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BlueDazing

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that's not really useful. Post a picture of your instrument panel with key on.

all the lights should come on at first as that is the "all bulbs test"... so they should all be on.... that's one important test to ensure that you know your instrument panel can visually light indicators. The next important part is leaving the key on, which indicators stay lit... again post a picture.
Here is a picture of the dash lights around 10 seconds after turning the key to run/not start.

The speedometer has always been messed up, ignore it. (Unless it could tie into the problem.)
 

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mrrsm

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Re: Post #28 THIS is very useful and comes from @TJBaker57 via THIS Thread:


PARKNEUTRALSWITCH1.jpgPARKNEUTRALSWITCH2.jpg

If necessary, adjusting the corrected position of the Park Neutral Safety Switch is very straightforward. Locate the PNS on the Driver's Side of the Transmission and loosen the Two 10mm (13mm?) Bolts outlined in RED in these images and slowly adjust its position to the point that the Shifter "T" Handle Button WILL Release after Pressing on the Brake Pedal and allow PRNDL Movement... then Tighten Down those Two Fasteners:

ADJUSTHEPNS1.jpgPARKNEUTRALSWITCH3.jpg
 
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budwich

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ok... thanks. So in your original post, you said that you can "force" a start but that it dies after about "one second" but then said probably because of anti-theft.... BUT does the anti-theft light then come on?

From your dash, it appears that the PCM is OK (based on status light), the next place to look is the BCM.... maybe. One other thing to consider would be to re-seat the connectors at the PCM (while also checking their contact conditions ... obvious visual hints). Same with BCM. Does the truck have a fob.... does it work?
 

BlueDazing

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ok... thanks. So in your original post, you said that you can "force" a start but that it dies after about "one second" but then said probably because of anti-theft.... BUT does the anti-theft light then come on?

From your dash, it appears that the PCM is OK (based on status light), the next place to look is the BCM.... maybe. One other thing to consider would be to re-seat the connectors at the PCM (while also checking their contact conditions ... obvious visual hints). Same with BCM. Does the truck have a fob.... does it work?
The security light does come on and start blinking when I start the truck through the relay, but when i turn the key off, and back to run, the security light is not on anymore.

I have unplugged each PCM connector and they all looked clean, no changes as far as starting the truck though.

Where exactly is the BCM?

The truck does not have a fob, just a key. But I do have 2 blank key fob's with 2 uncut keys. I don't want to have to get a key cut to use the fob though. But if i can just take the fob and program it while using the original key, then I can do that.
 

BlueDazing

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Re: Post #28 THIS is very useful and comes from @TJBaker57 via THIS Thread:


View attachment 107440View attachment 107441

If necessary, adjusting the corrected position of the Park Neutral Safety Switch is very straightforward..Locate the PNS on the Driver's Side of the Transmission and loosen the Two 10 (13?) MM Bolts outlined in RED in these images and adjust to the point that the Shifter Handle WILL Release after Pressing on the Brake Pedal and then Tighten Down the Two Fasteners:

View attachment 107442View attachment 107443
I have already tested that top right socket, and it reads 12v when this key on run. I have not tested it in neutral or in any gear other than park.
 
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TJBaker57

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OK,,, jumping in here so I may not be up to speed but try this....

Turn the key to run, then turn to start. AFTER turning the key to start let it come back to RUN (NOT any further back) now try jumping your starter. If I read the thread correct you have a way to do this already.

The difference is that BEFORE you ever try to jump the starter you MUST cycle the key to the start position to get past the Passlock system.
 
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mrrsm

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The BCM (Body Control Module) is situated behind the Driver's Side under the Rear Seat:

BODYCONTROLMODULE.jpg
 
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BlueDazing

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OK,,, jumping in here so I may not be up to speed but try this....

Turn the key to run, then turn to start. AFTER turning the key to start let it come back to RUN (NOT any further back) now try jumping your starter. If I read the thread correct you have a way to do this already.

The difference is that BEFORE you ever try to jump the starter you MUST cycle the key to the start position to get past the Passlock system.
Alright, I went out to the truck and turned the key to run, waited for all the lights to turn off and then turned the key to start (no security light yet.) I let the key go, ran to the hood and started the truck, it cranked, started, and then shut off within around a second. Went back in the truck and the security light was then flashing as usual.

I have also tried having someone start it while I am inside the trucking holding the key in the start position, but that doesn't allow the truck to start, it just continuously cranks. (Same as it would if the key was not on run/gear not in park.
 
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