SOLVED! Pinging/clacking from engine

[808]

Hey y'all I'm on the engine stand today again(4.2L ll8) with an odd noise - during manual / hand rotation of the engine - I'm noting a high pitched *ping!* that occurs about 3 times in succession if cylinder 4 intake valves are left fully extended & the valve train left *still*.

So, again, that would be: I rotate the engine to cylinder 4 at full intake valve expression, and then after going no further than that in stroke, I hear 3 pings about 8-10 seconds apart.

I can't view any specific motion at the valves - whaddya say?

Spring Set?
3 pings while nothing's moving?

I'm detail oiling the dickens out of it presently

- I'm just wondering if anybody remembers an: "Oh yeah that's definitely the HVLA pinging dry" or "oh yeah that's definitely the way spring set sounds", etc.

I'm a little surprised.

I've already done all the HVLA's - I have not done the springs.

 

[808]

Ordered a Dorman fuel line that goes from the fuel rail to the tank. Seems to be the easiest and best solution however will take a couple of weeks to get here (they were backordered here)

More Information for DORMAN 819814

Weeks!!! Oh mang :/ So it was the fuel line failure specifically? Not a fitting? & Dude what on earth would be making a stationary cylinder *PING/CLACK* at stillness???? I thought the motor oil nabbed it, now it's back :v - Directly emanating from the inside of the belly o' the beasty bore - almost like air trapped somewhere? But a loud audible clicking & pinging with no movement??? lololol COULD THAR BE A WEE NORDIC CREATURE IN ME RODS???? lolololol

 

[TJBaker57]

I would be placing a hamd lightly here or there while waiting for the "ping" to see if anything could be felt.

 

[Mooseman]

Moved this to its own thread for more/better responses.

Could you upload a video to YT of this noise and post the link? Where does it seem to come from? Is this the engine that's on the stand? What are you doing exactly? Does it do it with or without plugs?

 

[808]

Moved this to its own thread for more/better responses.

Could you upload a video to YT of this noise and post the link? Where does it seem to come from? Is this the engine that's on the stand? What are you doing exactly? Does it do it with or without plugs?

Thanks a bunch brother!!!! I will aim to provide the exacting of that visual/audio record to this thread today!!!! -Yes, this is the engine that's on the stand presently-, *out of the vehicle*, *no plugs*, no VVT solenoid, *cam cover off*, *oil pan off*, *front cover off*, got fresh sprockets & chain & tensioner & guides introduced a few days ago.

I had thought it *initially* was being produced from the intake port side of the engine when I first became aware of it, and then after repeating the scenario and listening at intake & exhaust ports a number of times, I found that the noise was localizing in the *depth* of the cylinder bore and emanating UP out of the #4 spark port. It's an odd characteristic, and I'm quite well befuddled.

I was first thinking that it was a valve sticking in the guide, and then a spring moving back into expression, but the visual review on the valve train - on either side at the ports or viewed from above - does not show movement. - I'm leaning towards piston ring at the moment.

I'll be taking the stethoscope to it later today to get ultra clear on *WHUT* song is being sung.

 

[808]

Also, when I say "detail oiling" - I mean: "erry-thang." - I'm dabbing a drip of Royal Purple at the valve stem/guide relationship during camshaft nose down. So, there's that level of TLC already in the *Engine Day Spa* R&R Hauzzz.

 

[808]

Here's my immediate assessment after coming through on the stethoscope doctoring - I'm actually of the *OPINE* that the specific lash adjusters on cylinder #4 intake side, while appropriately located in their orientation and relationship with the rocker roller ROCK N ROLLAS - have come from the factory as *thirsty children* vs. the rest of the babies all nestled in their bores in best case orientation rotation. Alas, ALASH, I don't actually have that EN 47945 presently-had to get it back to the dealership. (Although I've got another 10 lifters or so in shelf stock resting in Royal Purple)

 

[808]

HVLA's initially installed @ TOP OFF sweetness - I'm betting they need AHNALD pump up, because I think they've been oil well pumped off/out. The *PING* condition has actually become more pronounced, and I think it's all just 100% directly relative to first feed *NEED* - THE BABY BEAST IS CRYING FOR FRESH DINO JUICE MILK

 

[808]

- again, to beat the horse to death in theory posit, : THE HVLA/'S on Cylinder #4 Intake Valve Side are currently - leaked down - and now, in their empty state, at the HVLA cap well area depression, are experiencing the provision of 10w-30 lubricity temporarily sealing the surface of the spring nozzle cap to the roller arm mating surface, and are *BURPING* their pinging chortles out into the environment. This is resonating down through the valve stem as a resonance vibration, pinging into the cylinder for the highest volume expression. (It's the most logical preemptive conclusion that I can assess.) The piston rings would not be repetitively pinging at valve train stillness.

No motion to valve spring or stems = lash cylinders are the last culprit, and they've all been pumped on for good measure during the requisite rotations of this mechanical infant.

 

[mrrsm]

Clockwise Rotation... Only? Does the Engine emit these Bizarre Sounds when it is INVERTED on the Engine Stand? Are the sounds coming from the New, (Updated Design Internals) Cam Phaser-Sprocket that you have recently installed that has not as yet been pressurized with New Break-In Motor Oil while the Engine is Running? Did you apply copious amounts of EAL (Engine Assembly Lube) to the Timing Chain, Cam Phaser and Intake Sprockets prior to buttoning up the Timing Cover? Did you Prime the Gerotor Oil Pump with Engine Break-In Oil? Did you Pressure Feed that Engine Break-In Oil inside of the Motor through the Front, Lower Passenger Side Oil Gallery at the M16X1.5 Port in the Oil Filter Manifold and 'Keep The Pressure ON" while SLOWLY Hand Cranking the Motor to distribute the New Oil throughout the Main Bearings, Valve Train and the Oil Galleries? It is NOT necessary to have the Crank-Case - Oil Pan Installed to achieve well distributed internal lubrication with the Motor "On The Stand" by using this method.

 

[808]

Clockwise Rotation... Only? Does the Engine emit these Bizarre Sounds when it is INVERTED on the Engine Stand? Are the sounds coming from the New, (Updated Design Internals) Cam Phaser-Sprocket that you have recently installed that has not as yet been pressurized with New Break-In Motor Oil while the Engine is Running? Did you apply copious amounts of EAL (Engine Assembly Lube) to the Timing Chain, Cam Phaser and Intake Sprockets prior to buttoning up the Timing Cover? Did you Prime the Gerotor Oil Pump with Engine Break-In Oil? Did you Pressure Feed that Engine Break-In Oil inside of the Motor through the Front, Lower Passenger Side Oil Gallery at the M16X1.5 Port in the Oil Filter Manifold and 'Keep The Pressure ON" while SLOWLY Hand Cranking the Motor to distribute the New Oil throughout the Main Bearings, Valve Train and the Oil Galleries? It is NOT necessary to have the Crank-Case - Oil Pan Installed to achieve well distributed internal lubrication with the Motor "On The Stand" by using this method.

Thank You Sir!

100% Clockwise rotation *only*,
this infant is still *on the stand*, and *fully nude and un-glued*

VVT remaining at absolute 0, no advance, no play.

The CMP is quietly relaxing with no clatter, the cam lobes, the cam pillar cap entrances, the valve guide seal side stems, the chain, guides, tensioner, everybody everywhere have all been squirted consistently and copiously w/10w-30 Royal Purple.

(I know it's a full synthetic, I want fully synthetic right now until this child hits engine mounts.)

#Every/any noise is currently relative to a system that has no oil pressure.#

The Gerotor & Filter *Are Scheduled* for "Pre Prime Button Up TLC Mineral Based Assistance.

I have previously gone through inverting the engine to feed the WIX filter through the gerotor pickup port, (with the VVT solenoid installed to keep the system in O-rings) then flipping the rotisserie spit back and forth over a few times after filling to confirm/ensure/assist/maintain passage flow through all intended portions of the system, and then placing the engine back to plan view orientation and recognizing MMO flowing freely through the cam journal covers.

^I have not gone through this process recently^.

I'll be performing it after replacing the front cover.

I have *NOT* force fed @ the exhaust side oil galley M16/1.5 port.

The starter has not been installed.

Only wrench hand cranking.

 

[808]

Clockwise Rotation... Only? Does the Engine emit these Bizarre Sounds when it is INVERTED on the Engine Stand? Are the sounds coming from the New, (Updated Design Internals) Cam Phaser-Sprocket that you have recently installed that has not as yet been pressurized with New Break-In Motor Oil while the Engine is Running? Did you apply copious amounts of EAL (Engine Assembly Lube) to the Timing Chain, Cam Phaser and Intake Sprockets prior to buttoning up the Timing Cover? Did you Prime the Gerotor Oil Pump with Engine Break-In Oil? Did you Pressure Feed that Engine Break-In Oil inside of the Motor through the Front, Lower Passenger Side Oil Gallery at the M16X1.5 Port in the Oil Filter Manifold and 'Keep The Pressure ON" while SLOWLY Hand Cranking the Motor to distribute the New Oil throughout the Main Bearings, Valve Train and the Oil Galleries? It is NOT necessary to have the Crank-Case - Oil Pan Installed to achieve well distributed internal lubrication with the Motor "On The Stand" by using this method.

& in keeping with the fullness of explanation
( which you might have guessed but I just wanna be specific here for you )

- I'm aiming for the benefit of Royal Purple for the confirmation of the control rings verified in working order during the compression of the cylinder -

I'm making sure that MMO is the main ingredient in the cylinder slurpee, but I'm not aiming to mandate a ridiculously high constant for it's solvent content leaning.

So far the "manual leakdown" test has been verified with excellent results, cylinder #4 has had a little bit of historical content with this road warrior, as was verified by the "standing order" from overnight review to it's control ring.

However, as of a moment ago, the "DRIVE BY SQUIRTING" of the Cylinder #4 control ring has been confirmed with an increased MMO content today, with a compression test fitting in the spark port to "encourage" progress of squeezy-pleasy.

As far as the -pre-prime-force-feed- , :

I am choosing to accomplish that feat specifically with IGN #34 pulled in this '08 TB LT
using the starter at the crank to prime to pump.

I'd like you to know that I do appreciate your extensively thorough priming review.

 

[808]

Clockwise Rotation... Only? Does the Engine emit these Bizarre Sounds when it is INVERTED on the Engine Stand? Are the sounds coming from the New, (Updated Design Internals) Cam Phaser-Sprocket that you have recently installed that has not as yet been pressurized with New Break-In Motor Oil while the Engine is Running? Did you apply copious amounts of EAL (Engine Assembly Lube) to the Timing Chain, Cam Phaser and Intake Sprockets prior to buttoning up the Timing Cover? Did you Prime the Gerotor Oil Pump with Engine Break-In Oil? Did you Pressure Feed that Engine Break-In Oil inside of the Motor through the Front, Lower Passenger Side Oil Gallery at the M16X1.5 Port in the Oil Filter Manifold and 'Keep The Pressure ON" while SLOWLY Hand Cranking the Motor to distribute the New Oil throughout the Main Bearings, Valve Train and the Oil Galleries? It is NOT necessary to have the Crank-Case - Oil Pan Installed to achieve well distributed internal lubrication with the Motor "On The Stand" by using this method.

Again, I'd like to hail your fantastic contributions,
and thank you for your excellent efforts to due diligence.

The Frankencranker & The Frankenoiler were both quite solid form factors.

& Frankly,

I would be remiss not to regard this opportunity for *VIABLE* application
of *comprehensive oil circuit charging*.

This build has drawn long in the tooth,
and the fumes of the mystery oil need not be dismissed.

I did make the trip to Harbor Freight for a bug sprayer this evening,
& I did purchase an M16x1.5 blind plug which I'll be drilling in the morning.
After(of course) copious cleaning post the choice between tapping or welding,
the Mineral 5w-30 Shall CHARGE FORTH TO CHARGE THE PORT!!!

Again,
Thank You For Your Inquiry & Interrogation.

 

[Mooseman]

Maybe one of the lifters isn't liking no oil pressure? But you say it sounds like it's coming "deeper" inside the engine. Some of these engines do suffer from cold piston slap. Maybe that's what this is.

 

[808]

Maybe one of the lifters isn't liking no oil pressure? But you say it sounds like it's coming "deeper" inside the engine. Some of these engines do suffer from cold piston slap. Maybe that's what this is.

Cap'n @Mooseman I do concur that this might, in fact, be an indication of rocking angle challenge to that axial relationship with the skirt.

Also, I think that there may be another indication of that control ring in cylinder #4 having some "aspirable congestion" that was displayed by the *retention* of the 5w-30 provided at the spark port fill, where all other cylinders did "manually leakdown" past their ring setups over the last few days.

It would seem to me that *if a fresh rod job is not on the table* in consideration to a "half-R&R" of the timing/valve train/overall platform, and the "final mile/last leg" is in sight, and all last *gift horse* opportunities are on the table,
this would be the best case of confirming that on a minimum, control rings have burped.

Any blocked control rings would be a worst case fundamental for such a cylinder in question.

 

[808]

*Update* : After Pre-priming cycling rotations, the clamor at cylinder #4 disappeared.

(The joyous oil squirters did rejoice.)

I'd like to submit this posit for community consideration:

I think the interesting consideration for this juncture is this:

*In this instance->Case Study*,


has a *SAFE* "mechanical diagnostic" been


-demonstrated-


for the testing of "FRESH" HVLA's?

or is the story of rotating an unpressurized oil system ~BY HAND~ to be referred to as:

*fundamentally ???^^!!! Destructive !!!^^ in nature??? *


Obviously, this was a "stress test" to the tappets,
and I have an indication -presently- to predicate investigation upon
either of the tappets in question at cylinder #4 for evaluation & replacement.


What say ye? HVLA diagnostic EKG? Or Fatigue Mode Acceleration?
(Configured-Head-Mated-To-Block,Rotating-Without-Oil-Pressure)

Cheers!

 

[Mooseman]

What exactly did you do? Replace the lifter? Prime/fill it by hand before install? Run an oil primer on the system? Run some cleaner (MMO?) though it? Your post was a bit convoluted.

It's possible that a lifter had higher than normal leakdown and lost its prime and rotating it by hand bled it out. Normally, rotating in the normal engine rotation direction by hand shouldn't be an issue as even the service manual gives this procedure in various repair procedures.

 

[808]

What exactly did you do? Replace the lifter? Prime/fill it by hand before install? Run an oil primer on the system? Run some cleaner (MMO?) though it? Your post was a bit convoluted.

It's possible that a lifter had higher than normal leakdown and lost its prime and rotating it by hand bled it out. Normally, rotating in the normal engine rotation direction by hand shouldn't be an issue as even the service manual gives this procedure in various repair procedures.

To clarify:

I just ran an oil primer hand pump to PSI on the lubrication system, and then rotated it by hand.
5w-30 classic mineral.
- No lifter replacement.
Just PSI held while turning clockwise.

-"lifter had higher than normal leakdown and lost its prime" is what I'm regarding as:

exactly what was depicted in this specific instance.

That's my stated primary indication of all of that racket @ cyl. #4


I agree that the service manual gives the procedure for rotation,
and I'm wondering what microscopic fatigue might be indicated at the babbitts, etc.
from continual "long-term" unheated/unpressured rotation.

Do we have a known report in the house over the OEM Babbitt schedules from this year?

All lifters were installed from an overnight submersion filled with Royal Purple 5w-30.

Wouldn't this "test" indicate a non-fatigue-mode mechanical diagnostic?

HVLA tappet with a higher than normal leakdown would realistically fail earlier?

 

[Mooseman]

We've seen a couple of reports here of noisy lifters, like ticking, that were replaced and resolved the issue. I think the valve system in these engines is fairly robust if it's maintained properly with regular oil changes, like any other engine. A quality oil filter also likely plays a role in this so no Fram orange cans of death.

Yours may be an outlier with a failed lifter. It can happen, it's just rare. Definitely not like LS DOD engines.

 

[808]

We've seen a couple of reports here of noisy lifters, like ticking, that were replaced and resolved the issue. I think the valve system in these engines is fairly robust if it's maintained properly with regular oil changes, like any other engine. A quality oil filter also likely plays a role in this so no Fram orange cans of death.

Yours may be an outlier with a failed lifter. It can happen, it's just rare. Definitely not like LS DOD engines.

lolololol FRAM DEATHCAN lolololololol

 

[c good]

What was the solution? I read the whole thread. What did I miss? Thx...

 

[808]

What was the solution? I read the whole thread. What did I miss? Thx...

"To clarify:
I just ran an oil primer hand pump to PSI on the lubrication system, and then rotated it by hand.
5w-30 classic mineral.
- No lifter replacement.
Just PSI held while turning clockwise."

The noise disappeared after oil-pre-priming-repressurization of the passages.

Again, this is an *on stand* engine block teardown - head still mated to block, all covers removed, oil pickup tube removed, "fresh" HVLA's from GM factory source. This noise occurred from the lack of oil pressure in the system & trapped air "pinging" directly into the valve stem, resonating down into the belly of the bore from an HVLA that had pumped out all of it's installation pre-fill.

 

[c good]

Thanks for the clarification.